Ahh, where to start. After the whole get to know each other lunch time, Juggler talked about the structure of his method, which I’ll outline soon.
Then we went out in the field and we all made approaches here and there all day. By saturday night, we were all totally ON and having a great time.
Sunday, there were fewer HBs and each of us made only a couple approaches because the group may have been too large (there were 7 or 8 of us, including Juggler himself). In total, I think I’ve interacted with about 20-30 women this weekend, most of them on saturday and saturday night. I want to interact with about 200 more women in the next few weeks so I can get the Juggler Method right. And take many things from it and integrate it into my personal style. There are a couple things I disagree with in JM, and I’ll get to that later.
And now the meat. The things I want to say about JM and a few other things. Bear with me, I’ll try to make it as organized as possible, however this could be a little messy, but not as messy as TD’s posts… ;)
CONVERSATION: HIGH & LOW POINTS
According to Juggler, a conversation has high and low points. A low point is like a pause or a lull in the conversation. A high point is where you are talking freely and natural, as in a dialogue, and you two are in rapportwith each other. Get the picture? Now, I used to feel awkward or in a rush to say something during a low point. But, having low points is normal in a conversation, so no need to feel awkward or “force” the conversation. Simply make more statements to see how the girl reacts to your statements, and this should get the conversation going again. Which brings me to my next point…
QUESTIONS VS. STATEMENTS
Juggler has emphasized using statements rather questions throughout the entire workshop. According to Juggler, if a girl is not responding to your talking, don’t force it with a question. It will not open her up. Stay cool and comfortable, and find common ground using statements. This would be at a low point, where you should not struggle to get the conversation going by asking questions. Statements could be antecedotes, little snippets from long stories, etc etc. It is always better to make statements of
value, something that they can RELATE to, preferrably NEW ideas. Questions don’t relay any value, statements do. Here’s an example: it has been a tough winter in DC this year. I’m in a mall, and see a girl browsing for sandals. In this case, a good statement that she can relate to is, “hey, those shoes are good summerwear, can’t wait till summer because its been a rough winter this year.” And you can lead the conversation from there, you get the idea. Which brings me to the next point…
Anything is OK as an opener, so don’t try and perfect the art of opening. Rather, work on your body language when you open. I demonstrated for Juggler by opening a girl that was walking by, and he said I have to work on my body language. I tend to tilt my body to one side, putting more weight on one foot than the other. He said to stand up straight and don’t lean.
Also if you’re in a bar and you can’t hear her, don’t lean your head in, instead shift your entire body closer to her… its less threatening that way. I can correct this in a matter of minutes. And also to SMILE more. We also talked about physical breaks, which is hard to explain in text.
Read SexPDX’s Review for more on that, since I won’t even bother trying to explain this. Anyway…
Juggler also said that when you are making a statement as an opener, you must make sure that the girl KNOWS you are talking to HER, not just to yourself. That will get her to respond to you, rather than nodding and then walking away thinking that you’re just talking to yourself. Now, I don’t think it is necessary to make statements ALL the time, that is hard to do.
I think Juggler got confronted about that, and he says it is fine to askquestions AS LONG as you can back it up with a statement or a short story.
I agree with this, and opinion openers are a good example. With opinion openers, you open with a question… then you back it up with a statement/story behind it. If you’re not sure what opinion openers are, just ask TD and Papa. I’m sure they’ll give you GREAT examples, these two guys are walking PU encyclopedias full of TFM :) I can’t think of any more examples of statement openers because they are more situational than canned.
Situational openers… well, look around and use your imagination. Juggler also said that the opener and its follow-up don’t have to be related.
Again, it can be an open-ended and genuine question backed up with a statement. Then follow-up by opening a new conversation thread. Again, don’t struggle to keep the conversation going by asking questions. Asking questions will only get her to feel a bit uncomfortable… in that why-is-he-getting-to-know-me-and-I-don’t-have-a-clue-who-he-is? kind of thinking. Another thing about openers, don’t wait for her response if there is a pause. That will make her feel uncomfortable. Just continue with the
follow-up. Oh, and Juggler does restaurant sarging on waitresses and other tables. On waitresses, he opens with “We’re not big drinkers, but we’ll have this and that…” and on other tables, he asks them about what they’re eating and says “I don’t think we have that where I’m from” and this gets them to ask where he is from. I suppose he takes it from there. He has demonstrated this for us a couple times.
Oh, before I move on to the next topic, here’s an aside here – I asked him about table approaches, and one thing I learned about opening tables is that when someone on the table asks you a question, that is your CUE to sit down and join them.
Juggler says to stop thinking in terms of IOIs, but in openness, rapport, and genuine. I agree because when I sarge, I don’t even count how many IOIs women give me. I just feel the whole VIBE between us, and when I think it is right, I go for the close. I think newbies, especially if they have male-pattern-blindness, can practice by thinking in terms of IOIs, and when they get GOOD at picking them up, they can stop counting the IOIs and just go for it when they think they generated enough interest. Personally, I never had a problem telling when a girl was interested in me, even in my AFC days… I was perceptive enough. I just had a problem of doing something about it.
He doesn’t believe in takeaways. According to him, they damage rapport. Inyour PUs, you should AIM for rapport rather than doing takeaways just because you think it will get her to chase you. The only time they are fine is when takeaways are natural and genuine. For example, if you need to go to the bathroom. IME, I find that intentionally doing takeaways literally KILLS any chance of me hooking up with a particular chick, espeically in the bar scene where she can EASILY disappear into the crowd. So I would not lean on takeaways to do the work in attracting her to me, UNLESS I am doing the short-set method, in that case it is perfectly fine. More on that later.
This is huge in JM, it is the most important thing. This is what JM aims for. For instance, if a HB comes on to you, you MAY think that you are moving forward. But this actually isn’t so. You STILL need to get rapport in order to seduce and close. You can get rapport by making statements and bringing the conversation to a high point. Juggler advises against using sarcasm, because it is negative and pessimistic, which I agree with.
Frankly, constant sarcasm turns me off. I can understand that in JM, you rely on YOURSELF to be a natural, rather than using routines you memorized off this seduction community. I used to use routines all the time, and yes it got me results, but I still felt that the girl doesn’t really like me for who I AM. It was the routines doing the work for me. BUT… if you can use your OWN routines and stories that are actually TRUE of you, then by all means use them! Using your own material is EXPRESSING yourself to your
women… and this is what JM is all about. Self-expression. If you express yourself to girls, they will want to express THEIRSELVES to YOU. This is building intimacy between you and the girls. Now, THAT’s rapport! In fact, you should ALWAYS be expressing yourself, while you are talking AND listening. Put a positive spin on everything, even if she only partially agrees. I talked to Juggler about the levels of intimacy, and where does each topic of conversation lie. It goes something like this (this is
extremely rough, and may not be the most accurrate, just to give you an idea):
Level 1 (Superficial) — pets, shoes, flowers, etc
Level 2 (Semi-Rapport) — family, job, etc
Level 3 (Rapport) — bf, relationships, sex
Level 4 (Deep-Rapport) — SOI, close
I suppose this ties in very well with GWM because there is an assumption of rapport (VRA) when you are at a high point in a conversation like this. In Gunwitch’s recent post about rapport he talks about talking to people as if they are long-time friends, and not strangers. This ties in pretty well with JM when it comes to making statements rather than bombarding her withthe typical get-to-know-you questions.
What do you do when you are at a high point in a conversation, when you have rapport? Its time to SOI, and go for the close. If there is a high point immediately after the opener, introduce yourself and tell her your name.
She will tell you hers. After that, on the high points, you may SOI. Examples of SOIs:
“I like you.”
“Hey, we should get together sometime.”
“I want to see you again.”
I know some guys here will knock these off as lame or something, but don’t. IME, they do work. There are a lot of girls who won’t make a move on you until you tell them this. Last time I used an SOI like this, it recently was at school and I was in semi-rapport with a girl, and then I said “I like you.” Her face lit up and blushed a little, and she said “good, I like you too.” Then I immediately pulled her into my room and got the lay. Call it fool’s mate if ya want, but if it works, it works. No complaints. In JM, you dont SOI until you are at a high point. Do not SOI during a low point, it will come off as awkward and lame, and you set yourself up for a higher chance of rejection. And he advises against using modifiers, such as “I think..”, “so, you know..”, etc. Just go for it. Spit it out. Get it out. And when you get a good reaction, proceed to close however you want to.
COCKY & FUNNY (or PLAYFUL, whatever ya wanna call it, I don’t care)
There’s no C&F in JM. Because Juggler seems to think that rapport is fragile and being cocky/funny will kill whatever rapport you have already with the girl. I UNDERSTAND where he is coming from, although I won’t do away with C&F entirely. There are times where C&F has worked beautifully and got me the girl, and there are other times where it BLEW my sarges to bits and pieces. There also have been times where I got GREAT responses from girls when I used C&F, but they end up going home with another guy who was all rapport rapport with her. It is indeed tricky WHEN to use C&F. If you and a girl ALREADY is in rapport, do NOT use C&F at that point. It will only set you back, or even bomb the sarge so bad it won’t be any prettier than Baghdad at this moment. HOWEVER… I believe that C&F works best in groupsets. Especially in the bar scene. It sets you apart. Plus, it gets girls competing for you, and thats good social proof. Oh, and I just realized… C&F liners ARE indeed STATEMENTS. A lot of TD’s stuff are statements, and TD himself says do not ask the girl any questions unless SHEasks you first. In daytime sarges though, where you look for AIs and open via physical breaks, C&F is often not necessary at all because it is easier to get rapport in these cases. Well, maybe just a little bit, in terms of
ROLE PLAYING. The nighttime PU game is quite different though… which leads me to the next topic.
JM IN BARS / CLUBS — SUB-TOPIC: GROUPSETS
Keep conversation simple, and emphasize body language movements because it is hard to hear in these places since its loud and the girls have shorter attention spans.
When sarging groupsets, Juggler advises going for the one who is LEAST involved in her group. Get rapport with her, and get her to introduce you to the others in her group. From there you can choose your target. It is also better to engage one person STRONGLY than just MILDLY engaging an entire group. You can even build your own group (which I have done before myself). When Juggler talks to groups of 3 or more, most of his attention is on one girl (his target), and optionally talks to the others before isolating and closing his target. This, IMHO, is more flexible and straightforward than how the traditional MM goes. When you are in rapport with your target, don’t forget to ask about her logistics. Who is she with? How is she getting home? Where she is staying? That kind of thing. Also, Juggler said that isolation is not necessarily in a private room. It can be a short distance from her friends. I agree with that because her friends probably can’t hear your conversation anyway.
In bars, his mindset goes like this: “You don’t need anything. Give what you give, and put that in pauses” and says that gets him good reactions. If the girls do not respond to you much at first, you can leave and come back later. Rather than waiting for a pause or a lull in a conversation, you can just pause the entire interaction when YOU want to, and return to them later whenever you feel like it. This is similar to the short-set method that TD recently posted about. Juggler also said that if you say something stupid
or make a mistake and they close up, you shouldn’t view it as a bad thing because her reaction does not measure your progress with her.
What about negs? I don’t think Juggler believes in those. I find them to rarely be necessary. Contrary to popular belief of MM, the 9s and 10s don’t get approached as much as the 8s do. So I find that when I approach a 9 or 10, they are actually welcoming and open. But maybe thats just to me, I don’t know and I’m not complaining :)
TALKING ABOUT RELATIONSHIP SITUATIONS (this topic should be betweenRapport and SOI)
Juggler and I discussed a lot about this as this is relatively new to me. I did not do much of this before, except when getting a chick to be my MLTR (read the MLTR theory post by Svengali, I HIGHLY recommend it if you’re looking for more than a ONS). I asked him how he goes about bringing up the relationship topic of conversation. He said to tell about yours first. One way to do this is, after you ask about her relationship situation (e.g. “so, is there a bf/lover in your life now?”) she’ll be a bit shocked, and then take over and tell her your relationship situation FIRST. And then ask her
“what about you?” Juggler advises on being honest, and show cracks in your relationship situation, and she will show cracks in hers. Then you can work from there. You don’t really have to talk about relationships, but this is a good lead-in to your SOI.
SUMMARY OF JUGGLER METHOD
- Wait for her to express herself (via making statements, getting rapport, high point of convo)
- Introduce yourself (at the high point)
- What is she doing today? (if you are walking, she is going somewhere, say “im going that way too”)
- Show interest with statement (via talking about relationship situations followed by an SOI)
- Make appropriate close (contact, instant date, kiss, or fuck)